#207 – The Imperfect Beauty of Motherhood with Cathy Spooner

ATK - Podcast Branding V02-02

When we can be kinder to ourselves as mothers, we have a much nicer experience of motherhood. Sounds simple, right? There’s a lot of talk around being a conscious mother and conscious motherhood, but what does it really mean? After the conversation with my guest, Cathy Spooner, today I think you’ll be surprised to find its not what we are fed or led to believe. Listen to this delicious conversation as Amy and Cathy discuss:

  • The beauty of imperfection where life gets real, what that looks like and what we can do to live alongside the messy beautiful.
  • How different parts of our bodies are intertwined and sometimes the idea of ‘flicking a switch’ actually can dismiss and stall us in our acceptance and progress within Matresence.
  • When trying to accept the external, it has to start with accepting the internal because there are several different ways matresence affects us.
  • Demonstrating how giving to yourself can also benefit others, especially our children.

Often, as Mamas, we are all making a much bigger impact than we realise. If you would like to find out more about Cathy and how to discover and embrace your purpose alongside being a Mama please visit https://www.cathyspooner.com.au/. This includes 15% off The Conscious Mother Online Course, using the code happymama as mentioned in this episode.

If you would also like a deeper understanding of matresence and how we support women differently, the Mama Rising facilitator training opens just once a year. For your invitation and all details you can find out more at https://mamarising.net/open/.

 

Transcript
Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of this land.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

knowing and my own elders and teachers.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome back Mamas this week on the podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm speaking with Mama of three and author Cathy Spooner about her

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

new book, conscious motherhood.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And what does that mean?

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

What does it mean to be a conscious mother?

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

After our conversation, I can say very clearly, it's not what you think.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It isn't about being perfectly aware in every moment.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It's not been a guru of motherhood consciously moving through your

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

day, aware of everybody's needs and what you need to be doing.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

No, the way that Cathy explains to me and we talk about in this episode,

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

being a conscious mother is being in the imperfect beauty of motherhood.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

It's about being aware of your thoughts and feelings.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And even if you can't catch yourself from the messy moments, it's been able to

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

step into a space of reflecting on those later and finding the beauty of them.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I loved this conversation with Cathy.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I know you will too.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And at the end, she has a special offer for you, but please listen to

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

this with love and openness because, really the beauty of this stage in our

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

life is how imperfect we are in it.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Enjoy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Cathy welcome to the podcast.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I am holding in my hands your recent book, Conscious Motherhood, which I

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

have loved reading and exploring and getting to know your story even more.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So thank you for being here.

Cathy Spooner:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So let's start at the beginning.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

As I seem to say at every episode, what was your expectations of motherhood

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

when you were going into motherhood, what did you think it would be like?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, it's a great place to start, really.

Cathy Spooner:

I think like so many women, I was, I was ready to be a Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

And I, have a nurturing nature.

Cathy Spooner:

I was just like, my expectation was that this was going to be probably not so much

Cathy Spooner:

challenging until the kids were older.

Cathy Spooner:

Like that was my perception.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, like when you've got these crazy, like 10 year olds

Cathy Spooner:

running around, it's really intense.

Cathy Spooner:

Or when they're teenagers it's full on.

Cathy Spooner:

And so walking into motherhood, I felt like those early

Cathy Spooner:

years were going to be easy.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, I've got this.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, I can love with everything I've got.

Cathy Spooner:

This is going to be fine.

Cathy Spooner:

Maybe there'll be some sleepless nights, all that sort of stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

And yeah, I mean, it's, it's quite the enormous shift in perspective

Cathy Spooner:

when you're actually in it.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like, hang on a minute, nothing that I felt this was gonna be like

Cathy Spooner:

is actually the majority of this.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, it's the reality of raising a human and navigating your own

Cathy Spooner:

emotions and growth through that transition is something that's almost

Cathy Spooner:

feels in hindsight, I'm like, gosh, I wish showing you what I know now.

Cathy Spooner:

But at the time it felt impossible.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, how could, anyone, actually prepared me for

Cathy Spooner:

this cause I'm so unprepared.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mm.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And how did that manifest?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That lack of preparation that almost, I hate to say it so bluntly, but

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

that misunderstanding in a way of what early motherhood looks like

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and, and will feel like how did that manifest your in your experience?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So for me, for my first son, I had a traumatic birth and

Cathy Spooner:

just went on life afterwards.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, I just was like, I'm a new Mum, this is really full on, but like,

Cathy Spooner:

number one baby in hindsight for me was actually not as challenging as number two.

Cathy Spooner:

And so with number one, I faced all those same challenges as everyone,

Cathy Spooner:

you know, like, oh my gosh, the sleep deprivation is next level.

Cathy Spooner:

Who am I amongst all of this?

Cathy Spooner:

Like, I feel like I've just completely lost myself in being his Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

But my massive challenge for me came with the birth of my second son.

Cathy Spooner:

And, after he was born, I was diagnosed with depression, anxiety, and PTSD

Cathy Spooner:

from the first birth, which I actually didn't know that I'd had at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

And I put the pregnancy, I felt, you know, pretty terrible during

Cathy Spooner:

the pregnancy, but I put all of it down to hormones, like most people.

Cathy Spooner:

And I was like, you know, it's normal to feel sad every day.

Cathy Spooner:

Well, actually, no, it's not really super normal to feel like that all the time.

Cathy Spooner:

So, it really rattled me that second birth and the subsequent

Cathy Spooner:

months and years in fact, after that.

Cathy Spooner:

And so much of it, I did a lot of work with obviously like psychologists,

Cathy Spooner:

but a lot of my own inner work.

Cathy Spooner:

And just,

Cathy Spooner:

really, I didn't actually look outside of myself.

Cathy Spooner:

I didn't listen to a lot of podcasts or read a lot of books at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

I just felt like to get through this, I have to just come back in here.

Cathy Spooner:

Because that image that we talked about of like how motherhood,

Cathy Spooner:

you know, my expectation of it, I felt like I could not have been

Cathy Spooner:

any further away from that space.

Cathy Spooner:

I just felt overwhelmed.

Cathy Spooner:

I was always anxious.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt like I was failing my kids.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt ashamed.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, oh my gosh, like, everybody has got this sorted

Cathy Spooner:

and here I am falling apart.

Cathy Spooner:

Which is so not the reality.

Cathy Spooner:

We know that so many women experience mental health issues,

Cathy Spooner:

but also challenges with motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

And we often don't hear people talking about it outside of sleepless

Cathy Spooner:

nights and babies who can't poop.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, it's kind of like that story doesn't get told very often.

Cathy Spooner:

So those years were the, the hardest for me.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And when was that?

Cathy Spooner:

So my son is eight, this second son.

Cathy Spooner:

So I've got a 10, eight and five year old.

Cathy Spooner:

So yeah, the, the really challenging time was when my second son was, was born.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And then you had a third baby.

Cathy Spooner:

She was a surprise.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So many of the third babies are.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mine too, I thought I was done.

Cathy Spooner:

I know they always have their own plan.

Cathy Spooner:

Don't they?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so carrying that experience of the first two, but then also

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

from what I hear doing so much of that work in that space after his birth, what

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

was your experience with the third baby?

Cathy Spooner:

It was completely different.

Cathy Spooner:

Everything about it felt different.

Cathy Spooner:

Her birth felt different.

Cathy Spooner:

Those early days with her was so different.

Cathy Spooner:

I felt a much stronger connection to her.

Cathy Spooner:

Um, and I just softened into motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

I'd learned so much about myself.

Cathy Spooner:

I was much more grounded in the experience of motherhood that I

Cathy Spooner:

sort of when she was there and we had those challenging moments.

Cathy Spooner:

I was able to just kind of soften and be like, okay, this is just all part of it.

Cathy Spooner:

And this is a phase and this is a moment and this is not

Cathy Spooner:

gonna be like this forever.

Cathy Spooner:

And so it was a lot easier for me to not get caught up in some

Cathy Spooner:

of those really big feelings.

Cathy Spooner:

I definitely had challenges.

Cathy Spooner:

I think when you've experienced mental health issues, there's always this

Cathy Spooner:

little voice in the back of your head.

Cathy Spooner:

Like every time you're really upset, you think, oh my God, is it coming back?

Cathy Spooner:

Like, is this gonna take over my life again?

Cathy Spooner:

And that fear of falling back into like depressional, severe anxiety, that fear

Cathy Spooner:

in itself can be just crippling for women.

Cathy Spooner:

So there was always that in the back of my mind, but same thing.

Cathy Spooner:

I was like, you know, , this is not as bad as it was, five years ago.

Cathy Spooner:

And I've come through that.

Cathy Spooner:

Like that was a lot worse then.

Cathy Spooner:

And so I guess sometimes when we go through those challenges too, and you

Cathy Spooner:

learn about yourself and you learn about motherhood and how the reality

Cathy Spooner:

of it and how beautiful and wonderful it is alongside how incredibly like

Cathy Spooner:

challenging and heartbreaking sometimes, you know, it can feel the emotions

Cathy Spooner:

we go through can feel so intense.

Cathy Spooner:

So I guess it's that, you know, once we learn that we just, yeah, I

Cathy Spooner:

really softened into that third one.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I love that it's such a beautiful way to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

describe it, softening into it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Because in those early experiences of motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It is so hard, in terms of your body's hard, everything's restricted.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's this energy of, oh my God, what am I doing?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'm getting this wrong.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it's this real hardness within yourself and around you

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and everything you look at.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so when you then describe the opposite of that is this softening.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You can feel the difference you can feel, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But I also hear in you, a belief in yourself the third time.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I got through that, so I'll be okay.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I think that's the beauty of, of this experience, isn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That it brings us to our fricking knees and breaks us

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

over and over and over again.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But on the other side of it, God, do you know your strength?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And isn't it incredible how when we're in the middle of that process, we probably

Cathy Spooner:

couldn't feel any more disconnected from our power or, you know, we don't feel

Cathy Spooner:

courageous, we don't feel strong, we don't feel like we can get through it.

Cathy Spooner:

But it's like when we're in the middle of it, that's where we're fostering all

Cathy Spooner:

of you know, belief and power, you know.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's not until we just take that one step outside of there

Cathy Spooner:

that we go, oh, hang on a minute, actually, yeah, okay I can do this.

Cathy Spooner:

And it doesn't necessarily make everything easier.

Cathy Spooner:

I think what it does is it reminds us that there is that

Cathy Spooner:

light at the end of the tunnel.

Cathy Spooner:

It doesn't take away the challenging or the hard moments,

Cathy Spooner:

but it just reminds us that like, I've been through this or worse.

Cathy Spooner:

And I know that that light is there and that it's gonna get easier

Cathy Spooner:

and I'll walk out of this and look back and go, oh yeah, that's right.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm pretty awesome.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's it, and in that place, it's really also about

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

making sure that you surround yourself with the people, the tools, the things

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you need to move out of that place.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You talk a lot in your book about, you know, it's almost the holistic

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

team we need, to move through these challenges of matresence.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

We're not meant to do it on our own, we hear that all the time.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But this is also about sometimes needing antidepressants, sometimes

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

needing a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a hypnotherapist, a kinesiologist,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

a massage therapist, whatever it is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like that is the strength in this as well, isn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And there's all, it's that concept of, you know, when everyone says,

Cathy Spooner:

oh, it takes a, a village to raise a child, and then you see that quote

Cathy Spooner:

where people say it actually takes a village to, to raise a mother.

Cathy Spooner:

Because we walk into this as women, with like you said, those expectations.

Cathy Spooner:

And we also think that we can do it all on our own.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's nothing that we've ever experienced before, and it's

Cathy Spooner:

this whole new process for us.

Cathy Spooner:

And we kind of just get thrust into it.

Cathy Spooner:

Because once the baby arrives, it's like that split second

Cathy Spooner:

moment and everything changes.

Cathy Spooner:

Nothing's ever the same after that.

Cathy Spooner:

And so having that support team and being able to ask for help, that is hard.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I found that incredibly hard and sometimes I still do.

Cathy Spooner:

But, you need a network and you need to be able to say, you know what?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, I do need to see a psychologist and yes, for everyone's

Cathy Spooner:

health, maybe I do need to take antidepressants at the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Or yes, I need to go and have a massage, that's not a treat that is imperative for

Cathy Spooner:

me to be able to fill my cup and be able to operate with a functioning nervous

Cathy Spooner:

system and you know, all those things.

Cathy Spooner:

So yeah, the support team and the village is just as imperative for

Cathy Spooner:

the Mum as the child, isn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It so is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I really appreciated in your book, how honest you were around

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

the struggles with your body.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I think in the Mama Rising training, we talk a lot about the different

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

ways matresence affects us.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, for some women, it will be their lack of identity in their career.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

For others, it will be a real separation in their relationship,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

that is the real point of pain and struggle.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And for so many, this, and I'm sorry if I'm using the incorrect

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

word, please correct me with the, the way I was reading it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It was a real disconnect from your body.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You describe beautifully that, you know, you were getting ready to go out and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you're looking at your wardrobe and you're trying on all the different outfits

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and even the fail safe dress, you know, we've all got that fail safe outfit.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like no matter what, no matter how shitty I feel bloated,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I feel PMs, whatever it is.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

There's that one thing that always makes me feel good.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And even that you put on.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it just made you feel awful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And you went into the bathroom and looked in the mirror and you like, it

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

actually made me emotional reading it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It was beautifully described of just looking in the mirror and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

thinking what, what happened to this, to this body that I have.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so you explained beautifully the mental and emotional challenges,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

but also this is a very physical challenge for so many women as well.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Our bodies won't ever be the same.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And they are deeply imperfect after childbirth and motherhood, but to find our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

way back to looking at ourselves in the mirror and seeing the beauty in there, I

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

know you say in the book that you, this is obviously still a work in progress, but

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

for everyone who's listening and that is their source of pain, this feeling of, oh,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I just don't feel good in my skin anymore.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Can you talk to that?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

For me.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because it really

Cathy Spooner:

is a work in progress for me.

Cathy Spooner:

And it is, it is such a common thing for so many women at some point to

Cathy Spooner:

come out of pregnancy and those early years, and just feel like they don't

Cathy Spooner:

feel comfortable in their own skin.

Cathy Spooner:

And I think sometimes we look at it really surface level, like, oh, it's just,

Cathy Spooner:

you should love your body, how it is.

Cathy Spooner:

And your body's amazing and eat the right food and do

Cathy Spooner:

exercise and you'll feel better.

Cathy Spooner:

For me personally, I feel like it's a really, it's a

Cathy Spooner:

very deep experience for me.

Cathy Spooner:

And if I'm unable to look in the mirror and feel comfortable with who I see the

Cathy Spooner:

physical body that I am in, although it is not all of me, it is a huge part of

Cathy Spooner:

me and it feels connected to my soul.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm not separate.

Cathy Spooner:

I feel like this part of my body is this part, but they're entwined.

Cathy Spooner:

If one's off the other one feels off.

Cathy Spooner:

So, for me over the years, I'll be really honest.

Cathy Spooner:

I have tried all the, like, I just wanna love my stretch marks and I just wanna

Cathy Spooner:

like, love that, you know, my, my bottom's not firm and like all of the things and my

Cathy Spooner:

saggy boobs and all the, you know, stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

And it has, it's not just like an on switch for me.

Cathy Spooner:

I can't just say, oh no, that's because I had beautiful babies.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm so grateful, cause if I didn't have them, my body

Cathy Spooner:

would, you know, it's worth it.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm like, yeah, that's all true.

Cathy Spooner:

But flipping that switch is just not super easy for a lot of women.

Cathy Spooner:

So for me, learning to love myself on the outside has actually come as a secondary

Cathy Spooner:

part of loving myself on the inside.

Cathy Spooner:

If that makes sense.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes!

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So the more I believe in myself, the more I am kind to myself

Cathy Spooner:

and show myself compassion.

Cathy Spooner:

And you know, if I'm not getting on the treadmill one day, or if I'm like

Cathy Spooner:

yelling at the kids and I'm just like really kind to myself and I look in

Cathy Spooner:

the mirror and I think I look horrible and tired and like a complete wreck.

Cathy Spooner:

I try to change that mindset and just talk with a lot more kindness

Cathy Spooner:

to myself and know that I'm giving this everything I've got.

Cathy Spooner:

And that it's actually okay, that I'm not always going to look or feel good.

Cathy Spooner:

But the more I foster that like inner self love, the easier it becomes

Cathy Spooner:

for me to look in the mirror and feel comfortable in my own skin.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes, because when we look in the mirror, we're still seeing

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

ourselves through the cultural story of what our body should look like.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so if we're going to try and accept the external, it has to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

start with accepting the internal.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I freaking love that you said that, it is so true.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also thank you for your honesty that it's not a switch

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we just switch on or off.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, suddenly, we go from feeling like an alien inside our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

skin, because none of this is what we thought would happen and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we don't know how to get it back.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And actually we're never really gonna get it back to then suddenly

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

rubbing oil on our stretch marks and saying I'm so grateful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's not that easy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And it's bit of spiritual bypassing if I can in my ranting stage for a second.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

The way that we tell women to just focus on their healthy

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

babies is spiritual bypassing.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Just be grateful for what you have.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

No, as you've said.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

My soul is connected to my body and my body is connected to my soul

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and I need to feel good in this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Beautiful, it does need to be internal first.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And you're so right with spiritual bypassing like what it's really doing is

Cathy Spooner:

when you're saying to women, I know that it's a, it's a positive mindset, right?

Cathy Spooner:

I get the principles all for that sort of thing.

Cathy Spooner:

But what you're saying to a woman, when you say, be grateful for your stretch

Cathy Spooner:

marks, because you have your baby, it's a complete dismissal of her feelings.

Cathy Spooner:

It's completely dismissing how she feels about her body and implying

Cathy Spooner:

that you're not allowed to feel bad about, your body after having babies.

Cathy Spooner:

So it's this, it's got this real manipulative undertone to it, doesn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

In some way, which sounds awful because I know it's coming from a place of,

Cathy Spooner:

like, we just want you to feel good and have a good mindset and be positive.

Cathy Spooner:

But it's the underlying feeling of when someone says that to me, is that

Cathy Spooner:

well, if I still can't love my stretch marks while I'm rubbing oil on them.

Cathy Spooner:

And does that make me a bad Mum?

Cathy Spooner:

Cause I should just be grateful, cause I've got a baby and

Cathy Spooner:

this is the price that I pay.

Cathy Spooner:

So then it creates another story, doesn't it?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's it exactly.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also show us the images in the ads of women with stretch marks, then maybe

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

we will start seeing them differently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

But when the cultural assumption is still this perfect skin, all the

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

time, even post babies, then we can't just affirmation our way past this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I just thought it was a really, you know, obviously day in, day

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

out, I live and breathe this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I read so many books around motherhood and the experience of matresence

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and the culture around motherhood.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And, you know, I'm always looking for those things that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

stand out a bit differently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's told in a different way or an honesty that I get

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

goosebumps or tears around.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Cause I'm like, yeah, that's what we should be saying.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I thought that the way you have honestly portrayed this, uh,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

perhaps, I would even describe it as this internal battle of

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

accepting the imperfection of this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that you got postnatal depression.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that the birth was traumatic.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Accepting that your body doesn't look the way it was.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's just this real honesty around, I had to see that this was imperfect and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

not when I thought, but that's okay.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And there's so much power in that acceptance, but I think that

Cathy Spooner:

acceptance isn't something that we necessarily have to aim for.

Cathy Spooner:

I feel like it's a result of a process that you go through and

Cathy Spooner:

at the end, that's what happens.

Cathy Spooner:

I think sometimes when you say to people, you it's just accept it.

Cathy Spooner:

Like, yes, that helps when we're in those moments and you have to let

Cathy Spooner:

go and just be like, okay, this is, this is how it is, I need to let go.

Cathy Spooner:

But I do think real acceptance of our experience in motherhood and as a woman

Cathy Spooner:

comes from living it and being in it and then having that realisation at the other

Cathy Spooner:

side of just being like, yeah, actually this isn't, I don't like the word perfect.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like more the way you describe it,

Cathy Spooner:

it's like the imperfectness of all of this is exactly how it's supposed to be.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And that's the beautiful thing about this.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So when you say conscious motherhood, we hear so much about conscious parenting.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so it's really interesting to me that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you chose that word, Conscious.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Because when I read it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It's all about consciously aware of yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

how would you explain what conscious motherhood is?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

I, I I'll be honest.

Cathy Spooner:

I, um, the name at first, I wasn't sure.

Cathy Spooner:

Because I feel a little bit triggered sometimes by the term conscious

Cathy Spooner:

parenting, because I think that that, gosh it's another thing that we think

Cathy Spooner:

that we're supposed to be doing and another area that we could potentially

Cathy Spooner:

fail in, or we're not doing it right.

Cathy Spooner:

And so there's all that expectation that comes with the term conscious.

Cathy Spooner:

But when I wrote this book, I really felt like the underlying theme

Cathy Spooner:

was that I just wanted women to be able to look at their own unique

Cathy Spooner:

experience of motherhood with a really compassionate, forgiving, and open mind.

Cathy Spooner:

Because often all of the challenges that we have are either our perception

Cathy Spooner:

that we have of ourselves and how it should be, which is fed by society or

Cathy Spooner:

family or our upbringing, our personal experiences, all that sort of stuff.

Cathy Spooner:

But so many of the biggest challenges we have are just being able to look

Cathy Spooner:

at our own unique story and be able to be comfortable with the fact

Cathy Spooner:

that this one size fits all model of motherhood actually doesn't work.

Cathy Spooner:

So for you to find peace in your experience as a Mum, for you to find,

Cathy Spooner:

um, I guess like that balance where everything feels good, where you

Cathy Spooner:

feel like motherhood feels nice and aligned and you feel connected and

Cathy Spooner:

liberated as a woman at the same time.

Cathy Spooner:

That's a really hard place to find, but we're always working towards

Cathy Spooner:

having more of those moments.

Cathy Spooner:

Right.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I was just thinking that when you were saying that I'm

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

like, gee, I get that every now and then

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, that in itself is the conscious perspective on this.

Cathy Spooner:

It's like, we actually can't embody all of that all of the time.

Cathy Spooner:

So looking at this with kindness and acceptance, and just saying

Cathy Spooner:

that motherhood will be moments.

Cathy Spooner:

It will be moments where aiming for those really connected, beautiful

Cathy Spooner:

moments, but we're also accepting that in between those moments life gets real.

Cathy Spooner:

And raising human beings to their greatest potential is no easy feat.

Cathy Spooner:

And we're raising ourselves into motherhood too at the same time.

Cathy Spooner:

So, um, that was a bit of a long answer, but I it's kind of, yeah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Absolutely.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I'm glad you said that because again, conscious parenting, motherhood,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

relationships, I've read a lot about conscious relationships myself recently.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It assumes that underneath there is an unconscious way of doing it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And then we get really scared that if we're not conscious all the time,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

then we're this up again, deeply ingrained in great intentions.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And so many beautiful insights and practices, but in this podcast,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and I know in your work and in so many of these spaces, we just don't

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

want Mums to feel like this is one other thing they're gonna get wrong.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And if you're conscious all the time, if you yell, if you look in the mirror

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and say awful things to yourself, if there's a disconnect happening anywhere,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

it's not because you're unconscious.

Cathy Spooner:

Mm.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You know, in fact you're aware of it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's consciousness, you picked it up, you noticed.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I felt like shit today because I said that thing to myself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

That's conscious awareness, isn't it?

Cathy Spooner:

Mm.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, definitely.

Cathy Spooner:

And that's the best way to describe it.

Cathy Spooner:

Sometimes we're always aiming for that.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, this goal of like the perfect expression of what a woman or a mother

Cathy Spooner:

might look like, but the perfect expression of who you are is being true

Cathy Spooner:

to yourself, being true to your family and having awareness around the fact

Cathy Spooner:

that we're all imperfect, we're all gonna make mistakes, whether it's in

Cathy Spooner:

motherhood or relationships or whatever it is, and being able to accept that.

Cathy Spooner:

Okay, there's gonna be times when I make mistakes.

Cathy Spooner:

There's gonna be times when I choose the wrong path.

Cathy Spooner:

I can see that I have conscious awareness of that.

Cathy Spooner:

And now what do I do about it?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to make an apology?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to repair this situation?

Cathy Spooner:

Do I need to do something to fix my heart.

Cathy Spooner:

Um, and that conscious awareness is where I think we should be aiming

Cathy Spooner:

instead of this little perfect image of what it should look like.

Cathy Spooner:

But I just want to welcome more moments into my day where I am able

Cathy Spooner:

to go, oh, little light bulb moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Okay.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what I need.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what the situation needs.

Cathy Spooner:

This is what my kids need, whatever it is.

Cathy Spooner:

But just having more of those moments.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So in a practical way, what does that look like?

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So a Mamas listening right now and she really wants to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

be able to pick up on that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She wants to be more conscious and aware.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She recognises that, you know, that feeling of failure or disconnection

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

or whatever is in her life.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

What are some things that you share and work for you in terms of being able

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

to tap back into that during the day?

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

So there's a couple of things that I use throughout the day, or, you know, have

Cathy Spooner:

over the years and they're a little bit dependent on the head space that I'm in.

Cathy Spooner:

So if I'm feeling really good.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I'm having a great week, generally speaking.

Cathy Spooner:

There's a few ups and downs, but I'm not in a really low space.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm feeling quite good.

Cathy Spooner:

I'll often have the capacity in the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

Pretty much straight afterwards to be able to go.

Cathy Spooner:

Oh, okay, that's not how I would've liked to have handled that.

Cathy Spooner:

I didn't really need to yell.

Cathy Spooner:

I was a bit reactive.

Cathy Spooner:

Sometimes it comes, I can even hear my intuition sometimes.

Cathy Spooner:

Like I can feel, it might be the rage building up in me or something

Cathy Spooner:

like that, and I can feel it.

Cathy Spooner:

And then I hear this little voice sometimes it's there in the moment.

Cathy Spooner:

And it'll just say to me, just calm down.

Cathy Spooner:

But if I'm super elevated and I, my nervous system is a bit fried after

Cathy Spooner:

a couple of months of dealing with all of the things in motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

I don't hear the intuitive nudge.

Cathy Spooner:

I often can't be conscious even straight after the fact.

Cathy Spooner:

So a couple of things that I have learned over the years is that it's actually

Cathy Spooner:

okay for me to walk away, when I need my moment to recalibrate and be able to

Cathy Spooner:

open space for that conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

Because it's always there.

Cathy Spooner:

But when we're in full Mum mode and there's all the things happening,

Cathy Spooner:

we're like our nervous systems are just running on their basics, right.

Cathy Spooner:

This whole fight or flight, or we're just, we're in survival mode or we're

Cathy Spooner:

on autopilot where we're going through the motions, but we're not super

Cathy Spooner:

connected to anything that's really going on because, we've got probably 50

Cathy Spooner:

tabs open in our head and we are just doing all the things in front of us.

Cathy Spooner:

So when it's like that, I've learned that I need to, even if my kids are

Cathy Spooner:

upset, like sometimes my daughter and this triggers me even saying it out

Cathy Spooner:

loud, but sometimes my daughter she'll get upset cause something's happened.

Cathy Spooner:

And I'm really elevated.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm really triggered all the things are happening.

Cathy Spooner:

She's upset.

Cathy Spooner:

She's like, I just wanna cuddle.

Cathy Spooner:

And sometimes I have to say right now, sweetheart, Mummy just needs a minute.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm gonna come back for that cuddle.

Cathy Spooner:

But right now I just need a minute.

Cathy Spooner:

And that's one of the hardest things you can do as a parent is to place your

Cathy Spooner:

own needs over those of your child.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I've just thrown, like my hands in the air for those listening.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'm like, yes, hallelujah.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Yes.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's so hard, but then it's like, well, if I don't

Cathy Spooner:

learn how to do this, I don't ever open up space to be able to say, to

Cathy Spooner:

invite that conscious perspective.

Cathy Spooner:

How can I think from a grounded space that's like reasonable and focusing

Cathy Spooner:

on all of us equally and fair and what everyone needs in any given situation.

Cathy Spooner:

If I'm stressed, overwhelmed, like heightened emotions, nervous system fried.

Cathy Spooner:

Like you can't get into a conscious perspective when you're like that.

Cathy Spooner:

So I've learned as a self, like self-care, I just sometimes have to say, I'm sorry.

Cathy Spooner:

Mummy comes first in this moment.

Cathy Spooner:

I don't word it like that.

Cathy Spooner:

It would always be like, I'm coming back for that cuddle, but right now Mummy

Cathy Spooner:

just needs to take a breathing break.

Cathy Spooner:

And so I would just go for a few minutes and just get my stuff

Cathy Spooner:

together and then come back.

Cathy Spooner:

And then when I come back, then we can start to talk about,

Cathy Spooner:

okay, how do we repair this?

Cathy Spooner:

Mummy's lost it, she's yelled when she wished that she didn't.

Cathy Spooner:

So then we start the repair process from there.

Cathy Spooner:

And after the repair process has happened, what I think then happens is I feel like

Cathy Spooner:

every moment that I make what feels like a decision that's good and aligned in

Cathy Spooner:

my heart, whether it's like motherhood or making a decision for myself or

Cathy Spooner:

nurturing the kids through a process.

Cathy Spooner:

Whenever I make that decision in my heart I've and it feels good and aligned, it

Cathy Spooner:

feels like that's when I get the aha of like that conscious moment comes in when

Cathy Spooner:

I'm like, oh, see how you handled that.

Cathy Spooner:

That's you know, like that's, that's what you are looking for.

Cathy Spooner:

That moment is what you're looking for.

Cathy Spooner:

You're not looking for the moment where you can click your fingers and

Cathy Spooner:

solve the sibling rivalry, and you can click your fingers and stop the

Cathy Spooner:

emotional outburst or whatever it is.

Cathy Spooner:

It's actually, the moment sometimes takes longer than Mums want it to doesn't it.

Cathy Spooner:

We, we need a fast fix and sometimes that

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

And that conscious perspective comes after we're able to ground ourselves

Cathy Spooner:

and come back and then look at it and say, actually, I'm not a bad Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

If I was a bad Mum, I would not even be aware that I've potentially

Cathy Spooner:

done something that's upset my kids or not done the right thing.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, like a, a good Mum has this conscious awareness and she

Cathy Spooner:

will come back and she will do all the things that she can to repair

Cathy Spooner:

them, to love, do whatever she has to do for herself and her kids, so.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I just want to point out in that story about with your

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

daughter, you know, the, the feminist in me loves that story because what we're

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

showing the next generation, especially of women, but boys as well, that, you know,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you don't just have to give yourself.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You don't just swallow your own emotions and give yourself to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

someone else to soothe them.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

It comes from a place of checking in with yourself first and my God do our

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

girls and women need to know that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And I said, as our and our boys as well, but, you know, having studied

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

so much of why we silence ourselves as mothers, why we put ourselves second,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

why we don't prioritise our own emotions and needs, it starts from what we are

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

taught and see in those around us.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So when you say, I will 100% be there with you, I just need a moment first.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You're teaching her, she's allowed to say that to the world too.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I will do what you need me to do, but I just need to fill myself first.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Like I was doing my little hand in the air at that story.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I was like, yes, this is what we're teaching them.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And this is why.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

This is why it's going to change because when we are conscious as

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mums, not some guru mother that never yells, but conscious of

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

our energy and our needs, then we change the next generation as well.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's, I think sometimes we underestimate the power in us just being

Cathy Spooner:

ourselves in front of our children.

Cathy Spooner:

Because it, like you said, it gives them permission to ask

Cathy Spooner:

for the space that they need.

Cathy Spooner:

It gives them permission to see that people have faults.

Cathy Spooner:

I mean, in those early years when I was in a really bad depressive state,

Cathy Spooner:

and I talk a little bit about this in my book, I remember wanting to hide

Cathy Spooner:

away when I was crying, because I didn't want their kids to see me sad.

Cathy Spooner:

I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna mess them up.

Cathy Spooner:

They're just gonna be traumatised, if they see me like this.

Cathy Spooner:

And, over time, I think when you have severe depression, it's a bit hard to hide

Cathy Spooner:

it all the time, especially when you've got really little kids at home with you.

Cathy Spooner:

And I remember this one experience with my son and he came to me and he brought

Cathy Spooner:

me a little artwork that he'd done.

Cathy Spooner:

He'd created like a board game on a piece of paper and he would've

Cathy Spooner:

been like maybe four at the time.

Cathy Spooner:

And he gave it to me and he said, Mummy, this is the game

Cathy Spooner:

that will make you feel better.

Cathy Spooner:

And at the time I burst into tears because his love was just, you know,

Cathy Spooner:

that was just so profound in that moment.

Cathy Spooner:

And, later that day, I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, Cath, this is exactly

Cathy Spooner:

what you shouldn't be doing to your kids.

Cathy Spooner:

You shouldn't be crying so that they feel like they need to support you.

Cathy Spooner:

You're traumatising your children right now.

Cathy Spooner:

What are you doing?

Cathy Spooner:

Get it together.

Cathy Spooner:

And I went into this shame spiral.

Cathy Spooner:

And it wasn't until later that I thought about it.

Cathy Spooner:

Probably months later, and I thought, no, you know what.

Cathy Spooner:

He sees my sadness.

Cathy Spooner:

And not only does he now understand that it's okay to have really big feelings,

Cathy Spooner:

but he now also understands how to be compassionate towards another human being.

Cathy Spooner:

And that was like life changing for me.

Cathy Spooner:

It was just like, I need to show up 100% as I am in front of my children.

Cathy Spooner:

I'm gonna do my best not to hide away.

Cathy Spooner:

Cause sometimes it feels like it's good to hide away and that's okay too.

Cathy Spooner:

But just to make sure that they see.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Mm,

Cathy Spooner:

Humaness in all of its realness, you know, and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

All of its imperfect beauty.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, exactly.

Cathy Spooner:

Yep.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And also see you rise from that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

you know, it's a core example of, yes, Mum was sad and Mum got a bit lost,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

but then Mum found herself again.

Cathy Spooner:

Yep.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And that's, that's what this is all about.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah.

Cathy Spooner:

And we're all making a much bigger impact than we than we realise.

Cathy Spooner:

I think.

Cathy Spooner:

All of us Mamas need to just be so much kinder to ourselves and stop focusing

Cathy Spooner:

on how a perfect Mum looks like.

Cathy Spooner:

A Mum that doesn't yell, or she's got a great body, or the kids are

Cathy Spooner:

doing all the activities and smashing it at school and all the things.

Cathy Spooner:

But what you should be focusing on is how you show up as a human,

Cathy Spooner:

because that's the greatest impact that you'll have on your kids.

Cathy Spooner:

They take in everything, all of it.

Cathy Spooner:

And they wanna see you cry, they need to see you be angry, they need to see

Cathy Spooner:

you make mistakes and have to say, sorry, they need to see all of it.

Cathy Spooner:

They don't need a perfect version.

Cathy Spooner:

You know, as much as it makes me cringe sometimes when my daughter calls my

Cathy Spooner:

belly, the donut belly, she makes her little belly like squeezes it together.

Cathy Spooner:

She's like, I've got a donut belly, like Mum.

Cathy Spooner:

And squeezes her her, um, belly button together.

Cathy Spooner:

It makes me cringe.

Cathy Spooner:

I have still have moments.

Cathy Spooner:

And then I think, you know what I'm showing her that body image.

Cathy Spooner:

She does no attachment to body image.

Cathy Spooner:

And the more that we can just, whether it's that, or like I said,

Cathy Spooner:

everything, the more we just show up as real as we can possibly be.

Cathy Spooner:

That's how we be good Mums, that's what I think.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I totally agree with you, Cathy.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Wow.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

What a beautiful conversation.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Uh, I meant it when I said the honesty in your book and the way that you are

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

really vulnerable and showing the, all the different colours of this experience.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

The dark murky colors and the bright light, the beauty of it all,

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I really, really appreciated it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

So you have a special offer for the listeners of this podcast, if you

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

would like to just tell everybody about that and where they can find it and

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I'll share it also in the show notes.

Cathy Spooner:

Sure.

Cathy Spooner:

Uh, yeah, I have a new online course launching in August.

Cathy Spooner:

It's called the conscious mother.

Cathy Spooner:

There's that, that name again.

Cathy Spooner:

And it's a self-paced course that it's all online obviously.

Cathy Spooner:

And, I want you to go into this course and go through a process.

Cathy Spooner:

This isn't like a soft and fluffy.

Cathy Spooner:

This is a let's find out your biggest barriers to being a connected

Cathy Spooner:

and fulfilled mother and woman.

Cathy Spooner:

And let's slowly peel back those layers.

Cathy Spooner:

Let's do some journaling work.

Cathy Spooner:

Let's really start to go on a bit of a, a journey within yourself so that

Cathy Spooner:

you can find that conscious mother.

Cathy Spooner:

You can open up those little pockets of time in your day where you do

Cathy Spooner:

have this conscious awareness.

Cathy Spooner:

Because when we can be kind to ourselves, we have a much

Cathy Spooner:

nicer experience of motherhood.

Cathy Spooner:

So, I would love to invite your listeners to, 15% off for

Cathy Spooner:

the course when it launches.

Cathy Spooner:

So they just need to use the code, happymama.

Cathy Spooner:

All one word, and that will give them a discount.

Cathy Spooner:

There's no timeframe on that either.

Cathy Spooner:

So just whenever people listen and wanna jump on over, they can have a look.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Amazing.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you for that beautiful offer for everyone.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you for this book and this conversation.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I so appreciated it.

Cathy Spooner:

Yeah, thank you so much, Amy.

Cathy Spooner:

It's always so lovely to chat with you and just be in your presence.

Cathy Spooner:

The work that you do is amazing and bringing all these women into the podcast.

Cathy Spooner:

I, I love listening.

Cathy Spooner:

It's great.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thank you.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Thanks.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Beautiful.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I always love where these episodes weave and twist the conversations.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

Where it takes us how it unfolds and this one was no different.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

I loved the way that we explored what being a conscious mother is really about.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And really, again, breaking down this myth that we need to be perfect in it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

In fact, the beauty comes from the deep imperfection of all of it.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

You can find out about Cathy's work and that new program.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

She has the conscious mother website, cathyspooner.com.au.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

And use the code happymama to get 15% off.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

All the details are in the show notes, of course, as well.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

As always, if there's anyone in your life that you would like to

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

send this podcast to please do that.

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

This is how we change the stories for mothers is by sharing it with each other

Amy Taylor Kabbaz:

and jump on Instagram and let Cathy and I both know what resonated most out of

Share the love!

arrow-1

about1

Hello!

I'm Amy.

I'm a matrescence activist - here to revolutionise the way you feel about yourself as a mama, and transform the way the world values and supports all mothers, everywhere.

ATK - Podcast Branding V02-02

SUBSCRIBE

RECENT episodes

Understanding what matrescence is and how to navigate it is like being

handed a map.

Once you've got the map, the journey gets easier... and really, really exciting. Because it’s the making of you.

Get your Matrescence Map here - a six-page ebook which will empower you to understand why you feel the way you do, and the first steps to take.

Plus, receive updates on my podcast, programs, events and latest teachings every week.

arrow-2
ipad-map-1